Does my Martial Art adequately prepare me to defend myself? Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next         Does my Martial Art training adequately prepare me to defend myself? Yes  44%  [ 11 ] No  24%  [ 6 ] I have no idea  32%  [ 8 ] Total Votes : 25 Author Message mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: Does my Martial Art adequately prepare me to defend myself? Just a quick poll to get your opinions on this hotly debated subject. Back to top Athrun Zala Indigo Prophet Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 813 Location: PLANT Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: There is only one way to find out; all the clubs should go on a night trip to finglas First to die loses _________________ All men are born equal. It is not birth but Virtue alone that makes the difference... Back to top Asmo The Exception Joined: 03 Apr 2002 Posts: 5980 Location: Somewhere lookin awesome!! Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: I actually have no idea how well prepared I am since I have not been in a fight since I started training. I feel much more prepared than I was before I started and most likely could defend myself better. But I would say at the same time I would try and do moves which I have not got to a good enough level yet and get mulched in the process. So yea, possibly better at moving and blocking and stuff, but at the same time, may think Im better than I am and get killed. _________________ This post comes in User and Supermod form. Please select form as appropriate as both may not always apply. Back to top mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:54 pm    Post subject: Quote: There is only one way to find out; all the clubs should go on a night trip to finglas First to die loses There are easier ways to find out! Aside from pressure testing technique I think everyone has a pretty good idea of how they would do in a self defence scenario - you can't lie to yourself after all! Back to top saoilí Jackeen of all trade Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 2790 Location: Rathmines / City West Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:57 pm    Post subject: I have no idea. I have never been in a real fight, before or since starting training. I would like to think that I am better prepared to defend myself than I was before I started, but I don't particularly want to test the theory (though, sometimes, when I'm drunk, that seems like a good idea) and anyway, I have nothing to test it against, since I have no 'before' to refer to. Back to top Razz Banned Joined: 17 Oct 2002 Posts: 1093 Location: the house next to the house with no numbers Warnings : 10 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:59 pm    Post subject: I, am completely prepared. For any situation that could possibly happen. If 2 years in ju-jitsu didn't prepare then surely ten or twenty will be of no use. Back to top mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:11 pm    Post subject: Why not try this, get biiiiig 16oz boxing gloves, a headguard, gumshield and groin guard each and get on a matted area. Now try and KO each other as quickly as possible forgetting about technique the first time, if it goes to a clinch or the ground keep going. That will give you an idea right away of what a SD sitch will feel like - obviously there are a million variables, but the intensity will be quite similar. The best approximation to self defence in a controlled environment I have found is MMA training, might be worth you guys giving it a go. Even if its not the answer, it sounds like you need to better understand the question! Rezz wrote: I, am completely prepared. For any situation that could possibly happen. If 2 years in ju-jitsu didn't prepare then surely ten or twenty will be of no use. I don't know any of you offline so you'll have to forgive the stupid questions, but - are you serious? Back to top Razz Banned Joined: 17 Oct 2002 Posts: 1093 Location: the house next to the house with no numbers Warnings : 10 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:21 pm    Post subject: mark.leonard wrote: Why not try this, get biiiiig 16oz boxing gloves, a headguard, gumshield and groin guard each and get on a matted area. Now try and KO each other as quickly as possible forgetting about technique the first time, if it goes to a clinch or the ground keep going. That will give you an idea right away of what a SD sitch will feel like - obviously there are a million variables, but the intensity will be quite similar. The best approximation to self defence in a controlled environment I have found is MMA training, might be worth you guys giving it a go. Even if its not the answer, it sounds like you need to better understand the question! MMA? mark.leonard wrote: Razz wrote: I, am completely prepared. For any situation that could possibly happen. If 2 years in ju-jitsu didn't prepare then surely ten or twenty will be of no use. I don't know any of you offline so you'll have to forgive the stupid questions, but - are you serious? Completely. I am very serious about my martial arts training. Back to top KMcD Groupie Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 673 Location: In Kevin Street ripping out my hair!! Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:24 pm    Post subject: when "Rezz" gets that glint in his eye there's no stopping him... I'm so tough thanks to my style, in fact I'm so confident I'll challenge m0x1e to a battle on the mats (semi-contact points fighting rules) Last edited by KMcD on Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:45 pm; edited 2 times in total Back to top Capt. Flame Retardant Living it up Joined: 28 Jul 2004 Posts: 462 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Y'know Razz, you think you're poo tastes as good as everyone else's but i'm here to tell ya: it stinks. the moral equivalent of your statment is that if i ate fried mars bars for two years and didn't get a heart attack, then ten or twenty years eating fried mars bars won't make a difference. well my cholesterol laden arteries beg to differ. and get an enema. i trust tha t ihave successfully and sufficiently explained myself on this matter. but seriously, i couldn't phone for help with those boxing gloves on, and i can hardly ask my attacker to wait whilst i don them and assume marquis de queensbury rules apply. getting into clubs would be dodgy; every bouncer would be thinking (stop laughing...) he's just looking for a fight with those. i prefer to strap a tactical nuke to my scrotum and shout norwegian obscenities about his ice packer to win a fight. but that's just me. do you kiss your mother with that gumshield??? Back to top KMcD Groupie Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 673 Location: In Kevin Street ripping out my hair!! Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:38 pm    Post subject: mark.leonard wrote: Why not try this, get biiiiig 16oz boxing gloves, a headguard, gumshield and groin guard each and get on a matted area. how would you gouge out ur opponents eyes, and what about smacking his head off the ground. Fighting with gloves on mats will not replicate a street fight in any shape or form. Back to top Razz Banned Joined: 17 Oct 2002 Posts: 1093 Location: the house next to the house with no numbers Warnings : 10 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: I'll just keep goin'. Like an Energizer bunny Back to top Konsu Groupie Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 945 Location: The Circle of AshkEnte Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: Capt. Flame Retardant wrote: fried mars bars I'm curious. How does one fry a mars bar? (Don't say "throw it on the pan" or something to that extent.) Are they nice? Like Erkel. Back to top mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: I understand that wearing big gloves and a headguard does not replicate an actual streetfight, having 7 years of security work under my belt I am pretty familiar with the realities of combat (and it has been far TOO real on occasion! ). I have you that training scenario becasue it is obviously a ridiculous idea that to test if your art is good for self defence that you have a few drinks and then belt into each other with no safety equipment. What we are looking for is a controlled (read as "safe") environment, that provides a good approximation of real fighting. Quote: how would you gouge out ur opponents eyes, and what about smacking his head off the ground. Fighting with gloves on mats will not replicate a street fight in any shape or form. This is the classic Street vs. Sport argument that is constantly brought up, generally by people who know their training methods are inferior, though I am not saying this is the case here. The Street vs. Sport argument is discussed in this article which makes the point far better than I would be able to - Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton wrote: A Tired Debate I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, eye gouging, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary. Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!). You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system. Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves. Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground.Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". Thats faulty logic and poor assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated. Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. Thats the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain thats involved in earning that strong base. I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructorscertificates. In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think thats fine. But thats not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards. Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesnt have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base. Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger. This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awarness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them. [/b] Back to top mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:58 pm    Post subject: MMA= Mixed Martial Arts, generally the catchall term used to encompass any combat sport where fighting covers all three ranges, stand-up clinch and ground.[b] I only suggested the training idea above because some of you were syaing that you really didn't know how equipped you were to defend your selves, its not the best idea and its not a training methodology I would replicate in entirety (though some aspects of it I would use), it would be beneficial to you guys who have no frame of reference for actual combat. Back to top mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Quote: but seriously, i couldn't phone for help with those boxing gloves on, and i can hardly ask my attacker to wait whilst i don them and assume marquis de queensbury rules apply. getting into clubs would be dodgy; every bouncer would be thinking (stop laughing...) he's just looking for a fight with those. lol @ this, but you know that the training scenario is just that - for training and also a scenario! Back to top Capt. Flame Retardant Living it up Joined: 28 Jul 2004 Posts: 462 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Konsu wrote: Capt. Flame Retardant wrote: fried mars bars I'm curious. How does one fry a mars bar? (Don't say "throw it on the pan" or something to that extent.) Are they nice? Like Erkel. its a favourite in scotland. i'm serious, they roll mars bars in batter and deep fry them. with the gender confused dresses (or "kilts") i tak it to be another sign of represeed sexuality.....<nervous cough> i guess i have to agree with mark that martial arts are really martial sports for the first few years until you decide to make it your business to seriously trained up and across styles. a lot of artists talk but dont walk. i would seriously poo in a fight cos i'm a talker in and out of fights. i'd probably scoop the poo in my gloved hand and throw it at the guy to effect a getaway. the fightiefightie talk is part of the mental training people do to feel they are competent doing martial sparts (i think we should call it that). it's dangerous to confuse it with competency to win a fight though. its like christians trying to convince themselves that jesus christ cares. its all fine and well inthe presence of christians, but at best a laugh or embarrassment for their friends when they start it up in public places. (what, no that's not off topic at all....) the world is a dangerous place and those people who start fights hate freedom. i for one would send them to america for re-indoctrination if it wasn't off-thread. Back to top saoilí Jackeen of all trade Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 2790 Location: Rathmines / City West Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: mark.leonard wrote: I only suggested the training idea above because some of you were syaing that you really didn't know how equipped you were to defend your selves While this is true it's also true that I actually don't particularly CARE how equipped I am to defend myself in a real fight. I've never been in one, I've never even nearly been in one, I don't think there's a huge probability of me getting into one and as far as I'm concerned if I do get into one I'll handle it however seems fit at the time. I may be a member of the Maynooth Self Defense club, but learning to fight is not why I'm there. Back to top mark.leonard Drone Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 95 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:00 pm    Post subject: Quote: While this is true it's also true that I actually don't particularly CARE how equipped I am to defend myself in a real fight. I've never been in one, I've never even nearly been in one, I don't think there's a huge probability of me getting into one and as far as I'm concerned if I do get into one I'll handle it however seems fit at the time. I may be a member of the Maynooth Self Defense club, but learning to fight is not why I'm there. No hassle there, I teach the NUI, G Taekwondo club and the understanding in that club is that self defence is only a part of what we do, hence our trianing for sport (semi-contact competitions et al) and doing patterns. Its just that your club is called the NUI, M Self Defence club so I was under the impression that was your motivation for training. That is what sparked me to post this thread in the first place! There is no real problem though as long as people realise that they are not prepared to defend themselves. If people were claiming to teach that and then not doing so it would be far more worrying! Back to top crashaid Drone Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Posts: 66 Location: Walking the path ... Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:47 pm    Post subject: I'm also a veteran of this "tired debate" (although 3 different arguments have turned-up). mark.leonard wrote: The understanding in that club is that self defence is only a part of what we do The whole reason martial arts exists is to defend oneself. If you have to distinguish "self-defense" being a separte element of your art, and not the central application of the core principles of your art, then at best your learning a sport, at worse your learning aerobics. mark.leonard wrote: There is no real problem though as long as people realise that they are not prepared to defend themselves. If people were claiming to teach that and then not doing so it would be far more worrying! Whether it's intentional or not, that and the article you provided, come across as "my stuff is better than your stuff", which make me what to ignore them completely. I've found that people who think they have the better stuff don't tend to think openly enough to develop good ideas. Back to the original question: "Does my Martial Art adequately prepare me to defend myself?" Yes, because my art is about developing good body mechanics and applying them to get the maximum output with the miminum input. Every class I train my "self-defence" effectively without the need to strap on gloves and guards and go at it - I'm not training to be a brawler, I'm training to defend myself. Why practice in a mentality that a hit's not going to hurt?? Sport vs. Street? I'll take Martial Arts over the two anyday. 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