| |
| Author |
Message |
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: Groundwork - Yay or Nay |
|
|
| What kind of Ground work do you guys do?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
H12345
Drone
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 100
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So far the majority of the ground work I've done consists of "rounds" 5-10 mins in duration and has started as standing striking and let continue after a take down. There is no striking to the head when on the ground as of yet. It focuses on getting control/mount and trying to apply the basic locks/holds (i.e armbar,leg(ankle)lock)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
H12345
Drone
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 100
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Any further suggestions
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | So far the majority of the ground work I've done consists of "rounds" 5-10 mins in duration and has started as standing striking and let continue after a take down. |
This is more MMA than ground work, but regardless - Where do you learn your technique for this ground work?
I am asking as after seeing the seminar review it sounds like it is something the SD Club is into, so I am interested in learning what form it takes when they do it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
H12345
Drone
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 100
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Most of the ground work stuff comes from training with a couple of ju-jitsu guys, who are teaching me grappling in exchange for my standing striking. But as I said the grappling has been limited to the basics so far (i.e. leg/arm locks, rear naked chokes and my attempts at triangles). But my size and strenght aid me in controlling my opponent on the ground until my technique advances
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Razz
Banned
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 1093
Location: the house next to the house with no numbers
Warnings : 10
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
We start off on the ground.
There is no striking of any kind nor are there any pressure points.
There is simply trying to manipulate your oppenents energy so that you take advantage and apply a lock or hold or strangle.
The key component we focus on is neither speed nor strength, although sometimes it doesn't always ends up that way. It's should ideally be like pushing hands on the ground. Working soley on softness and technique.
As from where we learn our techniques from, we simply take the standing ones and try and adapt as the situation comes on the ground.
It really as a learn as you go experience.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | But my size and strenght aid me in controlling my opponent on the ground until my technique advances |
Should you not try and leave out your size and strength to encourage your technique to develop quicker? Using strength and weight (weight alone, I don't mean using leverage through proper technique) is anathema to improving your skill development on the ground.
| Quote: | As from where we learn our techniques from, we simply take the standing ones and try and adapt as the situation comes on the ground.
|
Seriously? Does this work?
| Quote: | | There is no striking of any kind... |
You should try mixing in strikes every so often, it is useful (IMHO anyway) to bear in mind that your partner can hit you and it really tightens your jitz game when you have to worry about getting KO'ed also!
Do you ever enter grappling tourneys at all?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Razz
Banned
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 1093
Location: the house next to the house with no numbers
Warnings : 10
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mark.leonard wrote: | | Quote: | As from where we learn our techniques from, we simply take the standing ones and try and adapt as the situation comes on the ground.
|
Seriously? Does this work?
|
Yes quite well, infact. We have some specialised techniques that are practiced on ground like prone defences and crucifix holds but the principles of movement are the same, so there is no reason, if you know what your doing, that it should not work, it really does help your understanding of movement if you can make a wristlock work while your sitting down.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | There is no striking of any kind... |
You should try mixing in strikes every so often, it is useful (IMHO anyway) to bear in mind that your partner can hit you and it really tightens your jitz game when you have to worry about getting KO'ed also! |
If you can put a wrist lock on a guy that you haven't even softened up with strikes then you must be pretty good. So when, if the situation ever arised that is, you go to ground on the street, you have all the better chance of getting out of there, with technique and strikes.
It will be even easier to throw the lock on then you are used to, hence faster and getting you out of the situation quicker. The longer your in a fight the more tired you'll get and more panicky due to the adrenaline.
As you say yourself, this improves your technique much faster then groundfighting while striking. If I am ground fighting asmo and I hit him in the face, he will be stunned for a moment and so it would be too easy to get a lock on.
This way it not only improves your ability to get the hold and locks, but also improves your ability to get out of them.
And at the end of the day, we don't want anyone getting hurt or knocked out, as this is just pointless.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
H12345
Drone
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 100
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Its difficult not to use the size and strenght especially if you mange to gain e.g side control or a full mount. But maybe there are ways to stop this ??? Any suggestions??
As for striking on the ground I think it essential but with some restrictions on the face contact (open hand around the head is acceptible) until both parties are accustomed.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| H12345 wrote: | It's difficult not to use the size and strength especially if you mange to gain e.g.. side control or a full mount. But maybe there are ways to stop this ??? Any suggestions??
|
Get a technical top game! Try playing a floating top game for a while as opposed to a crushing heavy one. The easiest way to stop using them is just to stop, you may get tapped more often than usual but that is no big deal and just means you are learning more anyway, once you have rolled without attributes long enough your game will get infinitely more technical and you will be far superior in a competition or fight then when you put the attributes back in.
| Quote: | | As for striking on the ground I think it essential but with some restrictions on the face contact (open hand around the head is acceptable) until both parties are accustomed |
You should never practice with hard contact when striking on the ground, the punches should look like real shots (not pointless face slapping), but as shots to the head on the ground can be so damaging it makes no sense to go harder than "educational" contact levels!
| Quote: | Yes quite well, infact. We have some specialised techniques that are practiced on ground like prone defences and crucifix holds but the principles of movement are the same, so there is no reason, if you know what your doing, that it should not work, it really does help your understanding of movement if you can make a wristlock work while your sitting down.
|
Okay, when can I get training with you guys for you to prove it to me? Have you a session at the weekends where you roll that I could come up with a couple guys and roll in with you lot?
| Quote: | If you can put a wrist lock on a guy that you haven't even softened up with strikes then you must be pretty good. So when, if the situation ever arised that is, you go to ground on the street, you have all the better chance of getting out of there, with technique and strikes.
|
Wrist lock on the ground? Tough to pull off if the guy us any way decent, but more power to you if you can do it.
I was really talking about the bottom guy, the guy defending the strikes, his jitz game will become much more tightly focused. Being on top when you can strike is all sweetness and light as far as I am concerned!
| Quote: | | And at the end of the day, we don't want anyone getting hurt or knocked out, as this is just pointless |
I agree, but training with strikes never has to hurt or injure (though it isn't pleasant) as long as you train smart.
Striking to submit is all well and good, but I think we need to roll together to see where each other is coming from, I particularly wan to see these ground wrist locks as they sound really interesting.
Do any of you train at the weekend? I have nothing on after Ring of Truth on Friday night we might be able to have a Road Trip
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Striking to submit is all well and good, but I think we need to roll together to see where each other is coming from, I particularly wan to see these ground wrist locks as they sound really interesting.
Do any of you train at the weekend? I have nothing on after Ring of Truth on Friday night we might be able to have a Road Trip[/quote]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Razz
Banned
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 1093
Location: the house next to the house with no numbers
Warnings : 10
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I saw your post but I'm in a compilers lab right now so I don't have time to properly reply. Check this thread tomorrow.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Asmo
The Exception
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 5980
Location: Somewhere lookin awesome!!
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Whe groundfighting, we try not to use strength because there are people like me who are no match for strength against people like Razz. Therefore we use sensitivity training to get around that barrier. If my opponent is strong but I am able to sense what his movement is, then moving out of the way and into a better position becomes a lot easier than trying to match strength with strength.
Wrist locks on teh ground arent as hard as they may seem. But then again it depends on what lock you are using. Some of us cross train in aikido and since all moves there are done standing and sitting, learning wrist locks from a sitting position becomes much easier.
_________________
This post comes in User and Supermod form.
Please select form as appropriate as both may not always apply.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Cool enough. As I mentioned above I have never been exposed to soemone going for wristlocks a lot on the ground so it would be interesting to see how it all fits together. How about some weekend training?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
H12345
Drone
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 100
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | You should never practice with hard contact when striking on the ground, the punches should look like real shots (not pointless face slapping), but as shots to the head on the ground can be so damaging it makes no sense to go harder than "educational" contact levels!
|
When I say open hand I mean open palm shots. just to clear that up.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Asmo
The Exception
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 5980
Location: Somewhere lookin awesome!!
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I unfortunately cant train weekends (damn work) but maybe some of the rest of the others could. Pm Buffy to arrange something.
Wrist locks on the ground are hard to keep I must say though. I do they often to put someone off gaurd but when done to me, I just flip stright out of them. They are more of the pre-lock than an actual lock when fighting someone half-competant.
_________________
This post comes in User and Supermod form.
Please select form as appropriate as both may not always apply.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| H12345 wrote: | | Quote: | You should never practice with hard contact when striking on the ground, the punches should look like real shots (not pointless face slapping), but as shots to the head on the ground can be so damaging it makes no sense to go harder than "educational" contact levels!
|
When I say open hand I mean open palm shots. just to clear that up. |
I knew what you meant its all good. 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
PM'ed Buffy so we will see what happens.
When do you finish up training? I might be free during the week at some stage (this is all asusming I am welcome?"
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.leonard
Drone
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mark.leonard wrote: | PM'ed Buffy so we will see what happens.
When do you finish up training? I might be free during the week at some stage (this is all asusming I am welcome?" |
Should I assume then from the lack of rpely that I am not welcome? 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Razz
Banned
Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 1093
Location: the house next to the house with no numbers
Warnings : 10
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
No. You should probably assume that she has been working. yesterday and today. she, or mox will get back to you when they can.
However the only time we do any real groundfighting is on mondays.
And you have to know how to breakfall and roll to attend those classes. No other reason than the throws tend to be a little more unforgiving.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
